GIJoe: ARAH #157 (Spoiler)

[The Doomworm]

I am just shocked that there isn't a bigger backlash about this from more Joe fans.

I've seen worse. I don't care for it, but I am automatically more comfortable with Cobra using exotic technology. I would be far more discontent with it if the JOES created it, because I see them specifically as analogous to a test bed for our extremely advanced secretive technologies (that is why I'm comfortable with weird and unlikely vehicles the Joes might be using...just because Hasbro made a toy doesn't mean I can't believe there was only ONE test model of that machine being used and discarded by Joe R&D).

With Cobra, I'm sort of impartial to believability. I PREFER a more black ops, serious, down to earth kind of a story, but it's not like I haven't been waiting to see that come about for almost three decades. Hey, we'll always have the Cobra series.

One of the other reasons I'm kinda over the whole MASS things is that, although I'm often furious initially to read the introduction of a cartoon element such as it, well, DDP kinda broke me to that... it's not a Transformer, a clone, a resurrection, or a dna-combined simulacrum.

I can accept it as a "techie" thing, and move on. And frankly I'm actually just fine with the story surrounding it. Let's face it, it doesn't work well and it hasn't been a tactical advantage (yet). It is just one failure after another, and it has been a thread of story which has allowed the main title to explore all these new concepts and loyalties without relying on lame reasons to get us there... it's just a framing device, and one which advances the "superior Cobra technology" mindset which I advocate.

And though I feel your pain, I LOVED seeing a tiny little installation on the moon. I laughed out loud.

Also, personally, I find the idea of Cobra providing security for the US even more ridiculous then the brainwashing and the MASS device.

Seriously? You think morally bankrupt individuals in positions of authority being influenced by money and power is more ridiculous? Delve into politics some and you will quickly change your mind.

Yeah, seriously. I'm on the Central Committee for the Republican Party of my county, and the webmaster of two sites for them. I just came from the State Platform meeting, and let me tell you, my beliefs about politics at a grassroots level still being "pure" is absolutely junk. There's sharks in that water, and they go OUT of their way to infuriate anyone who might still favor liberty and freedom right out of the party.

[shanecdavis]

I can accept it as a "techie" thing, and move on. And frankly I'm actually just fine with the story surrounding it. Let's face it, it doesn't work well and it hasn't been a tactical advantage (yet). It is just one failure after another, and it has been a thread of story which has allowed the main title to explore all these new concepts and loyalties without relying on lame reasons to get us there... it's just a framing device, and one which advances the "superior Cobra technology" mindset which I advocate.

Interesting to see what fans view as "techie". BATs, holograms, laser rifles, space-based lasers, and the BWS is what I would call "techie". Something like the MASS device is defintely NOT "techie", but rather "trekky", which I consider elements that are so far out there in the realm of science fiction that they belong better in a Star Trek comic than a G.I. Joe comic. What if the next storyline detailed the Joes coming up with a device that allowed them to go back in time in order to stop Destro from learning how to make the MASS device? How is time travel any different than teleportation on the believability scale?

I haven't read the stories so I cannot comment on the use of the machine, but if you say it barely works and it hasn't reached it potential then what is the real point of even introducing it? It is a stupid plot device that certainly isn't increasing sales one bit. I would argue that had they not introduces the crappy thing that sales would be doing better at this point. All it has done is turn off A LOT of fans rather than bringing fans together.

And though I feel your pain, I LOVED seeing a tiny little installation on the moon. I laughed out loud.

Oh I laughed. I laughed hard! I then shook my head and told the owner of my NSLCS that I was not buying that thing. Definitely one of the stupidest moments in Joe history.

Yeah, seriously. I'm on the Central Committee for the Republican Party of my county, and the webmaster of two sites for them. I just came from the State Platform meeting, and let me tell you, my beliefs about politics at a grassroots level still being "pure" is absolutely junk. There's sharks in that water, and they go OUT of their way to infuriate anyone who might still favor liberty and freedom right out of the party.

Okay, I am not sure if you are agreeing with me here or not. You start saying 'yeah, seriously' which makes you seem to agree with Frank Castle, but then you go into detail about corrupt politics that make it appear you agree with me. Some seem to forget that COBRA, as cashel pointed out, was recognized as a sovereign country and even had their consulate building in New York. Almost all of their operations, especially at the end, occurred overseas or were handled in a way that they stayed out of the public eye. They weren't any more known than the Joes were. Also, we forget that in 155 1/2 CC "woke up" his sleeper Siegies, many of which appear to have political ties. I will assume that CC is able to use that do what he told the Jugglers - get enough votes to declare martial law which would pave the way for the Jugglers to hire COBRA as a security force. The average citizen isn't going to know COBRA is one of the most dangerous terrorist organizations ever. They are going to be thinking about the puppet organization that COBRA has been using to get martial law called in the first place. They are the direct threat.

Now, it is still somewhat of a stretch to really believe that could happen, but definitely not nearly as big as the HUGE jump you need to take to believe in teleportation. I mean we are talking about teleportation here! How ridiculous is that?????

[The Doomworm]

Okay, I see where you are drawing that line in the sand on believability. I won't argue it, I'll just put forth that my gullibility for nonsense would not for a minute have any patience with a teleportation device explained away by "it's magic, stupid, don't think too hard about it." However I seem to be fine with "it's transistors, stupid, don't think too hard about it." I'm not going to applaud the use of the MASS in a story but I can't fault it for being used in a creative way, from a writing point of view.

It is being used as a long-term device for a single tale to be told, mostly Destro's story. Let's face it, Destro is the main character overall in the "main" IDW Joe story, and the MASS is just being used to keep his story going. I FULLY applaud IDW keeping this story rolling at the current pace because it is rolling out nicely, and if they had quickly ditched the MASS over the criticisms I would look back what we had been given and filed it away in my mind as a wasted concept. This is new, and staying that way.

For the sake of clarification (and to drag this conversation back to the boundaries of it's thread title ) what I meant to say is that I could fully buy into the U.S. Government either Federally or even on a County level contracting out security to Cobra, especially with the Jugglers calling the shots. I believe this is transparent commentary on today's militarizing police, drunk-stopping Marines, inland military checkpoints, and contractor based mercenary armies. The people of the Marvel Joeverse won't even know the difference, but I look forward to hearing one of them step out of line and spit on a Cobra Police Officer saying something goofy and Hama-ish about you "elitist boot-licking bourgeois global socialist" or something of that nature.

And I want M.D. Bright to draw it.

[Quickick]

Hey, Great News! According to Diamond Comics, looks like issue #157 is hitting the stands next week on Aug. 4. Only a two week wait between 156 and 157. Nice! It'll be a lot of fun to see Rock 'n' Roll back in action. He hasn't received much exposure in Dixon's continuity.

[HELLSTROM]

It COULD ship on the 4th, but Diamonds list for next week is VERY tenative and subject to change. Check it next week to be sure to save yourself a trip if it does not ship. Unless you are like me and get your comics every week anyway. Gas is too expensive to waste.

[stephbarton]

Hey, Great News! According to Diamond Comics, looks like issue #157 is hitting the stands next week on Aug. 4. Only a two week wait between 156 and 157. Nice! It'll be a lot of fun to see Rock 'n' Roll back in action. He hasn't received much exposure in Dixon's continuity.

Wow it that's true! I would be ecstatic to get the next issue that quickly but that seems really quick turn around for a comic.

as for the original premise...I know they are still using the COBRA name, but they did make it stand for something. I dunno, I do think having the guys dressed up like Cobra troopers walking around might be a bit much, but if you can accept that martial law is declared than even if the citizens aren't happy with people who were enemies 5-10 years ago doing security it there might not be a whole lot people feel they can do about it.

After all, Cobra (if memory serves me correct) really only made one major move against the US in the original Marvel-verse, and that was the attack on the treasury where HISS tanks were rolling through DC (love that storyline) but other than that even though they had tanks and helicopters flying through the country I don't think they were part of any major events on US soil.

Cobra became a legit country with a consulate building in New York and most of their overt stuff was oversees (middle east, eastern europe) so unlikely that the average American would care what they did (did the average American care about Islamic terrorists until 9/11? They were doing really bad stuff before than and even attacked the barracks in Saudi but before 9/11 90% probably didn't have a clue). So even though Joes died overseas and all this shady stuff was going on, it's unlikely that most Americans would care unless Cobra directly attacked the U.S.

Also, you could assume that many of those Cobra troopers could be U.S. citizens. I don't know what would have happened to the citizenship of all those people who moved to Cobra island (which was later abandoned) and they moved to Broca beach. Did they officially become U.S. citizens again? Or did Cobra just fake a bunch of identities and their paperwork could say "Joe Smith, naturally born U.S. citizen, never left U.S.A." so why would that guy doing private security really freak you out? Or freak the majority of people out?

Furthermore, you don't know how many of those guys are hardcore Cobra. It is possible that only one of the groups mentioned in 156 is made up of legit Cobra operatives (guys who fought for Cobra pre-martial law) but the others might be new recruits thinking they are doing the right thing or helping out. That is something I would like to see, maybe out of every ten COBRA guards only 1 would actually know COBRA as the terrorist organization but the other nine guys might just think it's a private security company (or if you listen to their name, a civic organization with guns).

After all, martial law was declared and that is the biggest believability hurdle so far for me. once I believe that than I don't have a problem believing that a crafty organization like Cobra could set up some innocent looking groups that would be able to take advantage of the situation.

Now, as for the Dr. Venom returning from the dead thing, I hope not. I like Dr. Venom but I don't want to see anymore clones (Mindbender) and I don't want to see brainwashing by implants either. However, as long as the action is good and the characters true than I'll put up with some of the more ridiculous aspects.

Whew, long post just to say I would be excited if #157 did come out that quick!

[Overlord]

That's exactly right, stephbarton ... in the original series, frankly, Cobra didn't do that much to "upset" the United States. Most of their attacks were directly against G.I. Joe - the super top secret team tasked with hunting them down. Most of it was retaliatory.

That isn't to say people didn't have some idea that a very large terrorist organization wasn't being battled by a special forces team. But Cobra dodged a lot of bad press. They used the system against us the entire time ... got legitimate with the island ... and did most of their dirty work in Third World countries.

The Millville campaign was one of their "big" operations on U.S. soil, but Millville was destroyed (whether by Megatron's Implosion Bomb or "unknown means" and the whole thing was probably covered up).

Between the fact that they really managed to avoid getting caught "red-handed" back in the Marvel run, the fact that G.I. Joe vs. Cobra was mostly kept top-secret, and the idea that Cobra's "Private Security firms" are using C.O.B.R.A. as an anagram, it's entirely possible for them to get away with it without the general public realizing that C.O.B.R.A. is the same thing as Cobra Command.

I mean ... the word "Cobra" is used all the time in the real world. It's a brand name of a car ... a type of helicopter ... a Crosby engine ... a type of tram-car ... a Royal Navy destroyer ... a fighter jet ... an anti-tank missile ... a police squad ... an armored vehicle ... a brand of beer ... an energy drink ... a brand of golf club ... a Stallone movie ... several bands ... computer languages ... nicknames and yoga postures. It's also a type of martial arts.

So while it's certainly a "worst kept secret" scenario, and definitely something the MI community knows about ... to the public the difference between C.O.B.R.A. and Cobra Command is the like the difference between ... um ... Blackwater Worldwide, and one of the dozens of cities named Blackwater in the world ... two films ... coal waste processes ... types of dark-watered rivers ... or kidney diseases.

[JAS2]

What I find hard to believe is that the JUGGLERS and others in the military allowed Cobra to be part of the United States' security forces knowing that Cobra is a terrorist organization.

It doesn't matter if the American people don't know about Cobra, what matters is that the people who advocated for Cobra to be integrated know that Cobra is a terrorist organization.

I hope Larry can explain this in a future issue.

[falcon671]

Well it depends on how corrupt the Jugglers are as well. In the DDP run the Jugglers were pretty corrupt so it wouldn't be much of a stretch to believe that they would allow Cobra to take over security. But we don't know how corrupt Hama is going to write the Jugglers. I liked issue 156 though and I am looking forward to 157...though I would personally like to see Falcon in some issues I doubt that will happen; he didn't get much time in the ARAH run or DDP so I'm not holding my breathe or anything.

[RainbowSix]

Thanks for the heads up, Todd! In regards to Dr. Venom, my best guess for his return is that he'll pull something similar to what Dr. Mindbender did in GI Joe #s141-142. The twist I think is that instead of a revival, what if... Dr. Venom did something to what the Joker did in Batman Beyond: Return of the Joker, and [i]downloaded his persona into BILLY?!?[i] That should be a twist.
Even if I'm wrong here, its cool to see Dr. Venom return. Maybe he'll finally get to interrogate Scarlett while he's at it...
As for the Jugglers... I hope Larry writes them as he did in the Marvel series. Preferably as honorable men as seen in GI Joe #53 or at least, underatandable adversaries. It was only in GI Joe #77 and during Jerwa's run that the Jugglers were really EVIL. For the most part, they're rather sympathetic-recall that it was Storm Shadow that blackmailed them in GI Joe #103, making abad situation worse-SS, not the Jugglers- and in #98, they were against the press making a public showcase of the events of the Snake Eyes Trilogy; they NEVER hammered either Hawk or Gen. Hollingsworth that Snake Eyes was a loose cannon. Josh Blaylock also wrote the Jugglers as sympathetic. In DDP's GI Joe #16, they argued as to the disposition of Serpentor's Mini-Mes and in #22, they were even apologetic when they told Hawk that his recommendations were outvoted.

[JAS2]

As for the Jugglers... I hope Larry writes them as he did in the Marvel series. Preferably as honorable men as seen in GI Joe #53 or at least, underatandable adversaries.

I agree; my impression from the Marvel series is that even though the Jugglers had internal quarrels with GI Joe (e.g. over taking blame for failures or being forced to do things), they are still US military and are at the same side with GI Joe against Cobra.

Which is why I find it hard to believe that the Jugglers would let Cobra take over part of their security, which would make themselves more vulnerable. It's like letting Al Queda take over part of the security of the US. (Note that I haven't read the DDP run so I don't know what character changes were made there.)

This is the big story hole that I can see with the opening story arc, but I'm suspending my disbelief, and am thus enjoying the series so far. I just hope Larry can give some explanation to what appears to be a "loophole" (to me) in his story.

[cashel]

i wouldn't mind seeing clutch throw a can of yo joe cola in the back seat of tht cruiser.

[Overlord]

Thanks for the heads up, Todd! In regards to Dr. Venom, my best guess for his return is that he'll pull something similar to what Dr. Mindbender did in GI Joe #s141-142. The twist I think is that instead of a revival, what if... Dr. Venom did something to what the Joker did in Batman Beyond: Return of the Joker, and [i]downloaded his persona into BILLY?!?[i] That should be a twist.
Even if I'm wrong here, its cool to see Dr. Venom return. Maybe he'll finally get to interrogate Scarlett while he's at it...
As for the Jugglers... I hope Larry writes them as he did in the Marvel series. Preferably as honorable men as seen in GI Joe #53 or at least, underatandable adversaries. It was only in GI Joe #77 and during Jerwa's run that the Jugglers were really EVIL. For the most part, they're rather sympathetic-recall that it was Storm Shadow that blackmailed them in GI Joe #103, making abad situation worse-SS, not the Jugglers- and in #98, they were against the press making a public showcase of the events of the Snake Eyes Trilogy; they NEVER hammered either Hawk or Gen. Hollingsworth that Snake Eyes was a loose cannon. Josh Blaylock also wrote the Jugglers as sympathetic. In DDP's GI Joe #16, they argued as to the disposition of Serpentor's Mini-Mes and in #22, they were even apologetic when they told Hawk that his recommendations were outvoted.

RB6, you're absolutely right ... the "Jugglers" as a whole were never that corrupt, and were for the most part understandable. It was wrong that they were a secret cabal, but hell ... secret cabals happen all the time in the real world. Maybe these guys were all in the same West Point Class ... or in the Skull & Bones club or the same fraternity or are Freemasons or something. (Actually, I find it far more likely that these guys have Military Contractor Organizations lining their pockets - how better to profit from Martial Law? Cobra covers the heavy workload, and their "personal, private corporate alliances" net them some nice retirement funds. Until Cobra two-times them, of course.) I can see it happening that way - and that way ... well, that's corrupt as hell, but it's understandable ... and relevant.

The "Pure Evil Jugglers" ... well, like I said - you're right. It was never the whole group. Usually ONE Juggler would go truly corrupt. But usually, that ONE Juggler would be arrested, C.M.ed, and sent packing.

Crowther was corrupt. Malthus was corrupt. Gibbs was corrupt. Harring was a sleeper agent. Basically, if they got named and we got to know them ... they were the "Bad Egg".

Winters and Millay were unethical, and involved in cover-ups ... but they weren't "Evil Men". And the rest of the Jugglers (Six at any one time who weren't named - unknown how many of them "stayed on" through both runs, or retired and had replacements step in) ... frankly we don't know anything about them, other than that Storm Shadow really pissed them off, and they usually expelled the "Corrupt Jugglers" like an immune system kicks disease out of a body ... then scabbed it over with a new member.

Austin and Flagg must've had SOME pull at the Pentagon to keep them at bay for so long.

[Master Shrink]

Wasn't it implied that General Ryan and Admiral Dyson were members of the Jugglers also? They weren't corrupt. Ryan was stubborn and didn't believe Cobra was a legitimate threat and Dyson seemed to have a "let's see what happened here" attitude over the Springfield debacle.

[scryptic]

Here's the preview, the Wigham cover is cool too:

http://issuu.com/idwpublishing/docs/gijoe_rah157_final